找回密码
 注册
搜索
查看: 2906|回复: 27

[原创] Deflation topic. (Again? give me a break) 

[复制链接]
发表于 2010-5-22 03:03 AM | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式


本帖最后由 jsl 于 2010-5-22 05:20 编辑

Deflationary news stormed my screen these days.
1. China's engineered (or not) cool down
2. EU's debt problem
3. unemployment rate stays high
4. growth gone?
5. second wave of foreclosure?
6. possible rate explosion under mounting deficit pressure. This is a ticking bomb. The current extreme might trigger its opposite.
7. CPI    I really don't like the CPI number, a lot of it is about equivalent rent which can be misleading in the current situation.  
8. ....


There is one theme  fighting all of these : debase the currencies if the central banks are determined. So far the ECB is reluctant to do that even with the hundreds of billions to bailout PIIGS. Aus sees no need yet (they actually brought up the rate). Devaluation of currencies is essentially a forced wealth transfer from lenders to borrowers, like it or not. German doesn't want to help PIIGS this way.  

Deflation itself is not scary, the implication of economic contraction is. When deflation expectation sets in, it will further disincentive investment and economic activity. Inflation is harmful only when it is so high that it drains the purchasing power and eventually leads to contraction and deflation (unless the currency goes Zimbabweish). Deflation does not always mean terrible for our everyday life. Examples are Japan in the later part of its lost decade, China in the first few years of this century. Stock markets, however, generally sucked. Of course, deflation.

Yes, the risk of deflation is here, however the possible outcomes rely on monetary policies in a large part. We could alternatively have a stagflation or just a hiccup on the way back to normal, the new norm. The Fed definitely will try to choke any deflation expectation here. If they fails to do so, we all know what will happen. The asset inflation before recession coupled with reckless lending then prompt people outspend their reliable savings and income. Given the size of the problem, it takes time to absorb what has been done, so there is nothing to surprise about some short term deflation after a period of reflation. Were not for the EU crisis, people might be cheering the low CPI for less rate pressure. Now it was interpreted as confirmation of a second dip. Bad timing.

There has been a fight between the investors and the Fed/central banks. By lowering the rate to zero, the Fed was pushing everyone holding cash to take risk and invest. However, the Fed can not control where the money goes. When the money doesn't flow into real economy, low interest rate will cause some unintended consequences. Last time, housing market got attention. This time? I don't know, maybe gold is one, at lest it helped bond market. In a worst case, we get stagflation.

For a long time since the worst of 2008, everybody was in the rescue mode. Only recently, some real investment occur, M&A for example. It was everybody's wish that the turbulence in the financial market won't derail the economy from the right track. It is only a wish. A critical variable is the duration of the impact. A long period of difficulty will stall economic engines.


The bottom line is: deflation is a symptom, not a cause. As long as Americans have money to spend, I will continue to be optimistic about the future. On the other hand, traders should always sniff the fear and greed in the air, investors should always know how to control risk.

评分

3

查看全部评分

发表于 2010-5-22 05:09 AM | 显示全部楼层
A neat article, indeed. Agreed on most of it.

Some discussion:
1. It is true that the real risk is "deflation expectation", not deflation itself. However, with the interest rate being kept at 0 and its balance sheet more than doubled, the Federal Reserve has less tool now than in 2008 to deal with deflation expectation.
2. Europe finally started QE, that's good. But their political structure determined that they will move slowly and unsynchronized, and may dial it back too soon. Any policy mistake will increase the risk for a longer deflation, thus entrenched deflation expectation.
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2010-5-22 05:47 AM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 AGA7d 于 2010-5-22 07:59 编辑

"As long as Americans have money to spend" - that is a problem going forward, U.S. needs to export a lot of goods or services, not just USD. Even in this 'recovery', not many real jobs are created. Only when the labor costs are down enough can U.S. regain some real jobs lost to overseas. State and local govs are cutting since they cannot print money, in the mean time, the Fed gov uses deficit to support a bigger government. This is a strange job situation.

A lot of USD have been printed, but not all have trickled down. Besides the overseas TB buyers, lots of those USD end into riches' pocket and they are buying the bonds. Many low-to-middle class are still struggling with money issue, also there is an overcapacity due to the world-wide economic expansion in the 1990s and 2000s. This is a strange "inflationary" deflation.

I do not know how long can this imbalance grow - in a sense, the gov can keep printing and the riches/overseas can keep hoarding with nobody have an easy way out.
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2010-5-22 05:56 AM | 显示全部楼层
"As long as Americans have money to spend" - that is a problem going forward, U.S. needs to export a ...
AGA7d 发表于 2010-5-22 07:47



No, not "inflationary" at all,

this is a "debt" deflation...
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2010-5-22 06:04 AM | 显示全部楼层
No, not "inflationary" at all,

this is a "debt" deflation...
X!nG 发表于 2010-5-22 07:56



    Printing more and more money is inflationary - all the governments are doing it.
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2010-5-22 06:12 AM | 显示全部楼层
Printing more and more money is inflationary - all the governments are doing it.
AGA7d 发表于 2010-5-22 08:04



80年前发生的今天100%的在重现,还是那句话:阳光下没有新鲜事,

不用我给你解释,如果你真的想了解,读读Irving Fisher的《Debt Deflation》吧,这才是1870s, 1930s, 以及现在(2000s)大通缩的根蒂...



Fisher\'s Debt Deflation.pdf (1.91 MB, 下载次数: 110)
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2010-5-22 06:24 AM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 AGA7d 于 2010-5-22 08:26 编辑

星大的解释不过更学术一点。美国个人的债务在减(虽然很慢),公司的负债情况也在好转(快的多),长期来看,这两个是可以解决的。理论上说,可以政府给每人发钱,把负债个人拉出水面。

当然这DEBT REWINDING 要利率配合,不小心很容易又一个泡沫出来。

我说的政府的债是真正麻烦的事。
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2010-5-22 06:45 AM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 X!nG 于 2010-5-22 08:46 编辑
星大的解释不过更学术一点。美国个人的债务在减(虽然很慢),公司的负债情况也在好转(快的多),长期来看 ...
AGA7d 发表于 2010-5-22 08:24



这个话题我已经谈得自己都是失去兴趣了,没办法

人分“天生乐观派”&“天生悲观派”,而这天生乐观/悲观的性格决定了不同人对问题认识的态度。

很多时候嘴皮子说破了都未必能给其讲明白,更可怕的是即便明白了还反着做,

这就是为什么我总说,在这个“屁股决定脑袋”的时代,没有谁能说服谁...
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2010-5-22 06:58 AM | 显示全部楼层
两位别争了。Inflation/Deflation是描述经济状况的, inflationary是描述货币政策的。所谓Inflationary deflation,是描述的这样一种局面,因为经济的deflation,或者经济发展出现了deflation risk,所以央行采用inflationary的货币政策。不存在任何矛盾。
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2010-5-22 07:08 AM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 AGA7d 于 2010-5-22 09:11 编辑

回复 8# X!nG


我对星大的悲观持相反观点,有一点肯定的,大家还要过日子,公司还要赚钱,因为有政府和联储,大家不会一下没钱花。几年后我说不上,一两年内不可能有天翻地覆。2008大崩盘是DEBT CRASH不错,但今年怎么可能?说起来星大不信,2007-2008我经常跟朋友说这经济不对头,要崩盘,虽然我给笨牛挤的不行,没有笑到最后。

观点不同,对星大的渊博还是佩服的,欢迎继续扔砖头。
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

 楼主| 发表于 2010-5-22 08:38 AM | 显示全部楼层
A neat article, indeed. Agreed on most of it.

Some discussion:
1. It is true that the real risk  ...
Diffusion 发表于 2010-5-22 07:09



1. QE is meant to make real interest negative, assuming comsumer price does go up. The short term debt is already rolling at a crazy speed. I won't sleep well at night if I were Ben and Tim with account on big margin.

2. it is easier to transfer money among individuals than between countries.

All agreed, people didn't sell without reason.

评分

1

查看全部评分

回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

 楼主| 发表于 2010-5-22 08:39 AM | 显示全部楼层
两位别争了。Inflation/Deflation是描述经济状况的, inflationary是描述货币政策的。所谓Inflatio ...
Diffusion 发表于 2010-5-22 08:58



    right on
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

 楼主| 发表于 2010-5-22 08:44 AM | 显示全部楼层
"As long as Americans have money to spend" - that is a problem going forward, U.S. needs to export a ...
AGA7d 发表于 2010-5-22 07:47



    right, we are going to see quite some volatility going forward due to this imbalance. There is no cure but to let time works its way out.
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

 楼主| 发表于 2010-5-22 08:59 AM | 显示全部楼层
80年前发生的今天100%的在重现,还是那句话:阳光下没有新鲜事,

不用我给你解释,如果你真的想了 ...
X!nG 发表于 2010-5-22 08:12


Great article.

I believe high savings rate can help the situation. Will talk about this when I have time.
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2010-5-22 09:39 AM | 显示全部楼层
Great article.

I believe high savings rate can help the situation. Will talk about this when ...
jsl 发表于 2010-5-22 10:59



    Looking forward to it. Thanks.
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2010-5-22 10:29 AM | 显示全部楼层
悲观论者有两个根本的毛病:

第一,对市场的极度不尊敬和蔑视。一个人的意见只是一个人的意见,市场的意见是所有人的意见。如果在几个月前就嚷嚷大跌大跌,如果是我,对目前的大跌是羞于claim credit的。没有时间限制的预测和破钟一天对两次没什么两样。

第二,忽视人的主观能动性。FA和TA都只是对已经发生的事实的观察,而不是holy grail,并不能有任何预测作用。Steve Jobs得了癌症,对于苹果的股票是坏消息,但是他会去就医,变坏 FA 为好 FA。企业要倒闭了是坏事,但是业主会去努力想办法,裁员,借贷,发展新产品,等等。去年三月前那些卖的人错了吗?没有。救市法案改变了一切原有的 FA。

那么现在呢,牛还是熊?我不知道(答案也取决于个人的交易区间)。市场的未来完全取决于政府,企业,个人的决策和行动。不过人类有史几千年以来,不都是在不停地面对问题解决问题吗?

根据现在几个月的观察就作出今后30年的悲观预测,脑子是进水了。

评分

1

查看全部评分

回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2010-5-22 10:43 AM | 显示全部楼层


Deflationary news stormed my screen these days.
1. China's engineered (or not) cool down
2. EU's d ...
jsl 发表于 2010-5-22 05:03
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2010-5-22 10:58 AM | 显示全部楼层
80年前发生的今天100%的在重现,还是那句话:阳光下没有新鲜事,

不用我给你解释,如果你真的想了 ...
X!nG 发表于 2010-5-22 08:12



    A difference between then and now is that paper monies governments could print then were limited by the amounts of gold they had and this limitation is no longer there. Governments and central bankers can print virtually unlimited amounts of paper monies these days if they believe it is necessary. A lot people may argue that these monies will go to the riches and not the ones who really need them. My question is what are these riches going to do with these monies? Buy T-Bills? Then monies go back to the governments.
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2010-5-22 01:25 PM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 atrader 于 2010-5-22 15:26 编辑

对TRADER/INVESTER来讲,本来就是上上下下,没必要只见24AC浪。当然,理愣工作者
一般的不是只见24AC浪,就是只见135B浪。鸡同鸭讲啊,要慢慢体会了。
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2010-5-22 03:24 PM | 显示全部楼层
悲观论者有两个根本的毛病:

第一,对市场的极度不尊敬和蔑视。一个人的意见只是一个人的意见,市场的意 ...
流动的建筑 发表于 2010-5-22 12:29



    JSL的雄文把建筑兄都招出来了。
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

您需要登录后才可以回帖 登录 | 注册

本版积分规则

手机版|小黑屋|www.hutong9.net

GMT-5, 2025-6-25 03:59 PM , Processed in 0.119133 second(s), 24 queries .

Powered by Discuz! X3.5

© 2001-2024 Discuz! Team.

快速回复 返回顶部 返回列表